Ange's 'falsely rewarded' sub comments are 'troubling' as Spurs fans ...

7 Oct 2024

Football365.com

There’s no shortage of mails on Man Utd and Erik ten Hag, but we start with Tottenham and Ange Postecoglou.

Send your views on any subject to [email protected]

Oh Ange, you lunatic
“Substitutions and all those kind of things … they are totally irrelevant to me,” he said. “If you’re not competitive, it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re not going to get rewards.

“We didn’t deserve, on our second-half performance, irrespective of subs or anything else, to get something out of the game. If you do get something out of the game, you’re falsely rewarded and I don’t want to get falsely rewarded.

“We should have put the game to bed in the first half. But if that just masks what I saw in the second half, then it doesn’t … I mean, certain things will always reveal themselves over the course of time. I’ve got to deal with what happened in the second half.”

This is quite troubling really. A manager saying subs are irrelevant….how about if the players on the pitch are having howlers (Udogie and Bentancur spring to mind, as does Werner) and the players on the bench are more than capable of coming on and changing the course of the match?

It’s almost as though he’s trying to prove a point by letting the match fall from our grasp. See, if you’re going to be sh*t, this is what happens.

That is fine if it’s say parenting and you want your child to understand cause and effect, it really isn’t when you’re the manager of a PL club.

As much as quite like the bloke the system is totally flawed and the players are mentally as weak as at anytime under AVB and Conte…perhaps it really is just a Spurs thing, after all I have been going to Spurs since 1986 and most of that time it has been pretty much the same thing bar the odd impressive season or two.
Dan Mallerman

READ: Tottenham must realise defending is not for cowards after Brighton take delightfully silly win

…Scientists have pinpointed the exact moment Spurs lost that game… it was Maddison’s delayed “bullseye” celebration for the cameras. Cue the complacency.

On a serious note though, as soon as this guy gets a goal or assist he considers his work done for the day… and then if/when Spurs actually hang on and win, brace yourself for a week of fluffy social media japes and endorsements.

That’s why you’re not in the England squad, James.

Oh and Ange, 1 quick goal should have been enough to stir you into a meaningful response, 2 quick goals should have been enough to shake you into urgent changes, 3 quick goals should have had you going berserk on the touchline and making drastic changes…. Yet you still hadn’t seen enough and wanted to wait another 13 minutes before doing anything?

What the hell man?! You love talking about your vast experience but matey with 2 years’ experience done you up like a kipper.

Tut tut tut.
Oliver Clark

Comparing Ten Hag to Arteta is delusional
Guys guys guys…

Garey Vance’s email about win percentages and how ETH’s compares favourably to Mikel Arteta’s at the same stages of their managerial tenures may be correct (is it? I haven’t checked) but Erik Ten Hag is not in his first managerial role, Mikel Arteta was and is.

Erik Ten Hag did not have to deal with a global pandemic 4 months into his tenure at Manchester United, Mikel Arteta did.

Erik Ten Hag has proven so unable to coach a defence that Manchester United finished last season with a negative goal difference. First job in management Mikel Arteta has never done that.

Perhaps ETH should have spent less time deludedly crying about losing at Arsenal last season and more time, y’know, coaching. Like Mikel Arteta has.

ETH is now 31 months into his Manchester United tenure and United sit 14th in the Premier League, despite a relatively soft start to their season.

By the time Mikel Arteta had completed 31 calendar months in the Arsenal job, we had just butchered what should have been a very achievable Champions League qualification in 2022. Not great, but all of us present at the Emirates to watch us hammer Lampard’s Everton, knew that this failure to qualify was but a blip in the road and that we would come back stronger and better the season afterwards. And that we did. And then we did it again.

I’m speaking only as an observer, but I don’t get the sense ETH has any sense of how big an institution Manchester United is, or the charisma to lead it.

In Mikel Arteta, Arsenal has someone who understands what our standards should be and has worked tirelessly to get us there. We may not yet have trophies on the board to prove it, but Arteta has made box office again what was a zombie football club years only 5 years ago.

Comparing Super Mik to ETH is just delusional. Sorry lads.
Paul, North London

MORE MANCHESTER UNITED COVERAGE ON F365
???? Aston Villa help out Erik ten Hag by playing out most boring game possible with Manchester United
???? Six-pass Man Utd man in worst Premier League XI of the weekend
???? Mailbox: ‘Man Utd didn’t get spanked’ as Ten Hag defended as job ‘difficult to laughable’

Vance is back
If J Belfast could point me to where in my mail I said everything is rosey in the red half of Manchester, or any conclusion was made about Ten Hag being “as good as Klopp and Arteta” it would be much appreciated. What I actually suggested was that both Liverpool and Arsenal were as inconsistent as United have been over the same number of games based on something tangible and irrefutable. This is not opinion, this is stone cold Benitez-esque facts.

Arteta was under massive pressure for quite some time with every man and his dog questioning if the job was too big for him, and loads of fans calling for his head. And though they will deny it now, there were plenty of Liverpool fans questioning whether Klopp was the right man for the job throughout his first few years when things were ropey.

Mike in Dubai may want to reevaluate his recency bias when he suggests there weren’t many bad results during those early years of Klopp’s reign.

Watford 3 Liverpool 0
West Ham 2 Liverpool 0
Leicester 2 Liverpool 0
Southampton 3 Liverpool 2
Swansea 3 Liverpool 1
Liverpool 2 Man City 4
Liverpool 1 Seville 3
Burnley 2 Liverpool 0
Bournemouth 4 Liverpool 3
Liverpool 2 Swansea 3
Hull 2 Liverpool 0
Leicester 3 Liverpool 1
Man City 5 Liverpool 0
Spurs 4 Liverpool 1

And just for good measure, even though it was a good few years into his tenure, let’s remember the time Villa beat Liverpool 7-2.

The point is, people forget through the passing of time and a lens of (eventual) success how inconsistent their team was when getting there. And as I stated in my original mail, which was the only conclusion I drew from it contrary to J Belfast’s imagination, Carragher was wrong to suggest everything was much better for Arteta and Klopp when they were building their teams. They dropped a similar level of points and won a similar level of games. Neither won 2 trophies in their first 2 seasons, but that’s a different story for another day.
Garey Vance, MUFC

A critique of Badwolf’s diatribe
Although this is a critique of Badwolf’s analysis, I only do it as I think his mail accurately reflects a lot of United fans that perhaps adopt too rose tinted a view of where United are at and what is going wrong. His analysis could be absolutely correct, time may prove it so, but there is reasonable evidence to suggest it won’t. And that is kind of the clue. Evidence. I think objectively looking at the situation identifies more issues than you notice when you’re emotionally compromised as a fan.

So lets start with his ‘good’ points.

‘We have made some good signings’ – Have you? Based on what? It’s very difficult to evaluate any summer signings for any team. There’s just not been enough games. You yourself even state that it takes some players a year to even settle in, so why assume your summer signings have been good? And that is before even looking at the actual form of those players that have played.

None of them seem to have started very well or are currently injured. De Ligt has had a relatively poor start to the season. Zirkzee has done OK, but I would say no more than that and Ugarte has played of games in which he did ok. I don’t suggest they aren’t good signings based on this and each of the summer signings may well prove invaluable and astute purchases but without any evidence, this statement is one purely in hope rather than expectation.

“We’ve fixed some major issue areas” – Again that’s not based on any evidence. It’s just a wild assumption. And it’s an assumption that regularly happens with United supporters and seemingly infects the club itself. Every new signing seems to be brought in with the intention of solving some issue or weakness but over the last decade we have seen precious little progress.

In fact, some players seem to add problems more than solve any. If you have a weak defence and you buy defenders it is safe to assume you are trying to improve that area of the pitch, but whether any progress has been made can only be shown over time with evidence i.e a much improved goals against column / much improved league place. Even someone like Varane who was world class, playing for the best team on the planet and still a good age ended up failing.

“There is actually a plan…” – What did you think the club was doing before? What do you think other clubs are doing? Just reacting to events as and when they unfold? Utd are doing exactly as they did before, trying to buy their way out of trouble. This summer saw another splurge in the transfer market, just as in the previous summers. There is always another signing on the horizon which will make them title chasers again.

It’s why Ten Hag is still in his position because everyone insisted that he had to wait until the squad was ‘his’, as though coaches coming in and working with the playing staff to begin implementing preferred tactics and patterns is something alien and exotic, not to mention simply working to improve players individually.

“Have invested well in the next generation… veritable collection of diamonds” Can you guess? Yep, almost no evidence. You have one player who can objectively be called a diamond. Kobbie Mainoo. This is a 19 yr old who has forced himself into the United starting 11 for over a year. He forced himself into starting for an exceptionally talented England team. It is objectively true that both the current United coach and the England manager both decided that an 18/19 yr old player was good enough to start regularly. That is exceptional and unusual.

Whether he will go on to fulfil his promise, time will tell. What is unequivocal, his relative success to date infers that he is a diamond. All the other talent you must be talking about, they’re not diamonds, certainly not yet. You’re hoping again. Desperately hoping.

“Hojlund is a cracking player, and if we feed him, he’ll score” Not according to the stats. In 97 appearances across the English, Italian, Austrian and Danish leagues he has scored 27 goals. Thems the facts. And they don’t paint a picture of someone who is a goalscorer. That might change. Or he will still become a top player without being a prolific goal scorer, but stating he is a cracking player who will score goals. Blind hope.

“Injury crisis” Man United were 4th in the injury league table last season, just above Liverpool. That suggests they had a bad season for injuries compared to the average. Currently there are 2 players who have had long term unavailability in Malacia and Yoro. Everyone else is either fit or should be in contention by the end of the international break.

Injuries happen, sometimes teams are unlucky, and they are particularly affected, but ultimately it’s what a squad is for, and considering the hundreds upon hundreds of millions spent, Utd should be better placed than most to deal with them.

“if not, Ruud will be just fine…” Already putting in place the delusion for the post Ten Hag era, the assumption Ruud Van Nistelrooy will be a top replacement simply boggles the mind.

Of all of the assumptions devoid of evidence this is surely the most significant one. Ruud has not completed a single full season as a manager. He nearly completed the 2022/23 season with PSV, his only in management, but resigned 1 game before the end of the season. With a team that would go onto win the league the following season, he won the Dutch equivalent of the FA cup and charity shield. That he is even considered shows how poorly the club has been run the last few years and how deep the delusion runs.

It would have been unthinkable post Ferguson for someone of his paltry experience to be offered the job, even as a stopgap, but so many managers have come and gone that expectations and standards seem to have been seriously eroded. And the reason this has happened is because some Utd fans, and even the club themselves, seem to have become blinkered in their analysis of the team.

From my position I would evaluate Manchester United thusly – You currently have a fairly decent first 11 with an average squad. Your manager has shown scant evidence of being able to rebuild this squad and improve the tactical setup. Your management structure hasn’t been in place long enough to ascertain their suitability to arrest this issue so you should wait a reasonable amount of time to judge whether they are improving the team.

You should change manager. You should implement a player value model to understand the weakest parts of your team. You should identify targets now that evidence suggests they could improve these specific problem areas. You should endeavour to change the fan opinion from one which expects success irrespective of the quality of the players to one which understands the limitation of the current playing squad. This will help to reduce the unrelenting pressure based around unrealistic expectations.

Once the fans understand the situation and can perhaps relent on expecting consistent wins, particularly against other top 6 sides with better squads, you can spend the vast amounts of money Utd accrue to gradually improve the team. If weaknesses are identified and the best available targets purchased the improvement can be quick, a couple of seasons even. Look at Arsenal for a prime example of how a young, world class squad can be assembled with significant but not unsustainable spending.

Take off the rose tinted glasses and assess objectively, you will all be better for it…
Ed Ern

Man Utd will find a great manager in 10 years
Manchester United are a weird club, they’ve essentially had 2 successful managers in their entire history. Busby managed for around 24 years won 5 league titles, 2 FA cups and, of course, the European cup. Ferguson 27 years, 13 league titles, 5 FA cups, 4 League cups, 2 Champions leagues. So, 51 years and a stunning 76% of the overall trophies won by the club were won by these 2 men, what does that tell you.

It tells you 2 things. 1) United are unlike any other club in England and probably Europe and are pretty much useless at getting the right guy to manage the club, 28 managers in total since the club was formed 2 who you can regard as successful 26 (that’s 26) who have who have won bugger all between them!

2) based on point 1, they will cycle through managers on a consistent basis until they finally find the right guy, which should be in about another 10 years or so going by the hit rate the club have currently, when they do find him, they’ll hang on for dear life and won’t let go, pile up a bunch of trophies, that person will retire and the cycle will start again.

ETH is a great coach, and he might yet turn out to be THE guy, but if he isn’t, he’ll just be the next one in the list to fail, and it’ll be 2 successful managers in 27.

PS: I am aware that there are other trophies that the club has won, but it was easier to break down the 3 major ones people look at.
Vernon, Dublin, Ireland

Stop picking on Man Utd and Ten Hag
I wrote in last week saying that Man Utd were sh*t with an explanation so I’m not trying to put a ridiculous spin on the club such as the one by Badwolf.

I’m also not surprised or upset about the over the top vile abuse from all you ‘neutral’ fans out there. However, what I do take quite a bit of offense to is the nonsense from people who call themselves journalists who just like to exaggerate anything Man Utd to force a conversation. Isn’t journalism supposed to be unbiased? Not in this day and age – clicks pay the bills so biased is good and nonsense is even better.

Firstly, 16 Conclusions on Utd v Villa was pathetic. If you really can’t be arsed to write anything and just pout about choosing the wrong match then just write about the other games instead. But actually you know you wouldn’t do that as it’s better to write a shit article about Utd as you’ll still get more clicks and replies than a great article on anyone else.

Other than the patheticness of the article, you seemed to decide that this was clearly a case of Villa being shit and gave no credit to Utd. Poor little Villa played in Europe in midweek. No consideration that Utd also played in Europe a day later and so had one day less to recover. Utd were also away from home. Doesn’t suit your agenda though.

Then your portrayal of Rashford’s non-sending off. If you’d actually watched the game, it looked relatively harmless at the time, the commentator at the time also said so until about the 3rd slow motion replay when it actually looked like it was worthy of a yellow card.

So yes, Rashford was a touch lucky but actually, on first glance it was no surprise the ref saw fit to not award a card. If you think this was such a big deal then advocate for VAR intervening on every single tiny decision on the pitch but don’t bulshit about the non decision just to suit your clickbait agenda.

Just to add to this, while you focussed on this non-sending off, you didn’t mention that the 12 fouls of utd warranted 5 yellow cards whilst the 11 fouls of Villa warranted just 1. It was not a dirty game but the ref seemed a bit keen to get his yellow cards out to utd players. Not to say utd didn’t deserve their cards but Villa got away with quite a few that could just have easily gone in the book.

I don’t have much argument with concluding the game was a pretty dull one or that ETH hasn’t done much to keep the wolves at bay but a point away at one of the better sides in the league (despite their lack of spending compared to Utd that you ‘journalists’ so love to point out) should actually be seen to be a pretty good point to gain. Shouldn’t Villa maybe be kicking themselves for not even being able to score against such a shitty team? or wouldn’t that suit your agenda?
Jon, Cape Town (It seems journalism as we knew it died long ago – the red tops had it right all along)

The clicks have it
Firstly, many congrats on actually putting together 16 conclusions on the Aston Villa / Man Utd game, impressive work. Secondly, I was struck by conclusion No. 16:

“Try as we might, it’s just impossible to care deeply about anything connected to this United team unless and until it departs from its current meandering road to nowhere, something that appears less and less likely to occur under the current manager.”

It may be impossible to care deeply, but definitely possible to care just enough for all those lovely clicks. At last count, scrolling down the homepage, 29 of the fist 40 stories/links/headlines are about Man Utd and/or have some Man Utd reference in headline. Clickety click click click ????.
Brian, Ireland